Is it Ok. to invite Jesus to Shul?

[ellen]

David Nekrutman, the Executive Director of the Ohr Torah Stone's Center for Jewish-Christian Understanding & Cooperation, thinks so - according to an article in the December 2008 issue of the Jerusalem Post Christian Edition.
Quote: “Nekrutman assured his guests that he wanted them to feel comfortable, and even urged them, despite being in a synagogue, to ‘pray in Jesus name. Don't leave Jesus at the door’."

[Sharbano]

I can understand where the Rabbi is coming from and have heard, read, others with a similar viewpoint. I wonder, though, if the xtian concept if fully understood by these Rabbis. For instance, when Abraham was visited by the three angels, the xtian interprets this as being the "godhead". Furthermore, when they consider G-d they view him literally in human form sitting on a literal throne with jc at his right side. This is not allegorical to them but literal. There is a belief in three distinct entities and the idea of them being "one" is metaphorical, essentially they are in agreement as one. This cannot be rationalized but is taken "on faith". I would consider that this is pure Avodah Zarah. Not only this but the similarity between this belief and Mithraism is staggering. Whereas Mithraism would seem primitive it appears that xtianity is given new clothes. If the Rabbis do understand this then I certainly cannot understand the rationale. This is where I have the most difficulty. How far should a person go in counteracting this phenomenon and should it be tolerated or should one fight against it wholeheartedly. I can't help but think Zephaniah speak of xtianity in 1:5,6 "...and those who bow down and swear to Hashem, and Then swear by their king; and those who have turned back from following Hashem"

[ShoshanaTunk]

I do not understand this. Why are Jews encouraging people to believe in a false god? The J person and the creed that he has inspired is based on idolatry and pagan myths. Jewish souls were burnt in the name of this J person during the Inquisiton. Many Jewish souls have been murdered throughout the ages in this J person's name. How can anybody even think of inviting his name into the holy area of a shul? I thought we were supposed to be encouraging these people to be Noahides.

[Elisheva Cares]

I think we Jews sometimes try too hard. Maybe we're love starved and can't handle being the "nation that dwells alone". Maybe the rabbi and his staff truly believe we have entered a "new era of Jewish-Christian relations". Maybe the dependence on Christian$$$$$$$$ has really blinded some of us and perverted our thinking.
ShoshanaTunk said:

I do not understand this. Why are Jews encouraging people to believe in a false god? The J person and the creed that he has inspired is based on idolatry and pagan myths. Jewish souls were burnt in the name of this J person during the Inquisiton. Many Jewish souls have been murdered throughout the ages in this J person's name. How can anybody even think of inviting his name into the holy area of a shul?

[Penina Tal Ohr (Taylor)]

Last time Jesus went to shul he wrecked the place.

John 2:14-15
"And He found in the temple those who sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers doing business. When He had made a whip of cords, He drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen, and poured out the changers' money and overturned the tables."

Until he learns some manners, he can just stay where he is!

:-)

[Shy Guy]

Penina Tal Ohr (Taylor) said:

Last time Jesus went to shul he wrecked the place.

John 2:14-15
"And He found in the temple......"

:-)

Penina, you should mention that any knowledgeable religious Jew today, or any person 2000 years ago who actually went up to the Temple in Jerusalem, would know that the vendors and their wares were not IN the Temple, but outside of the Temple grounds, in the surrounding market streets - the "shuk".

And that's the gospel truth!

[Penina Tal Ohr (Taylor)]

True dat!
Shy Guy said:

Penina Tal Ohr (Taylor) said:

Last time Jesus went to shul he wrecked the place.

John 2:14-15
"And He found in the temple......"

:-)

Penina, you should mention that any knowledgeable religious Jew today, or any person 2000 years ago who actually went up to the Temple in Jerusalem, would know that the vendors and their wares were not IN the Temple, but outside of the Temple grounds, in the surrounding market streets - the "shuk".

And that's the gospel truth!

[ellen]

Now this is an interesting dilemma.
I once asked Rabbi Tovia Singer if it is necessary for us to study the NT in order to refute christians. I certainly don't want my children wasting their time with the "gospel" and I certainly never thought I would have to confront this problem in Eretz Yisrael! Tovia did have a point that the emphasis the Hareidi school system places on the study of Gemara over Tanach leaves an educational void, and certain students vulnerable to missionaries. And, of course, the secular school system in Israel is a total disaster.

The fact is, there is a serious missionary presence in Israel and Israeli society is ill-prepared to handle the onslaught. So I think it's valid that certain counter-missionary experts at times fight the battle via the NT.

Ideally I would prefer to get my ammunition via the Torah and only the Torah. Note the evolving Torah section of this site.
I personally would prefer the path of Pirke Avot (Chapter 2, Mishna 14): Rabbi Elazar Said: "Be Diligent In The Study Of Torah; Know What To Answer An Unbeliever." But there is definitely room for debate on this issue and I know that people like Rabbi Singer of Outreach Judaism and the numerous good people at Jews for Judaism have enjoyed remarkable success at getting our people out of the churches, because they have been well-versed in the deceptions of the NT. And of course JewishIsrael does have an evolving
glossary of evangelical terms on this site, because we are all a bit uneducated and naive.

Sara Mount said:

I think it is unnecessary and inappropriate to quote the NT especially a verse that the xians use to perpetuate a Jewish stereotype.

[Penina Tal Ohr (Taylor)]

Get a grip, I was making a joke. And besides, I wasn't quoting the NT as scripture, I was using it as a source to show that Yeshu had bad middot. Lighten up!

Sara Mount said:

I think it is unnecessary and inappropriate to quote the NT especially a verse that the xians use to perpetuate a Jewish stereotype.

[Shy Guy]

Why is that? If anything, as Ellen has already written, the Sages tell us "dah mah le'hashiv l'Apikores" - "know what to answer the heretic".

If anything, my personal experiences of getting into the muck and the mire which is the New Testament, and following Christians claims while studying their refutations, has only strengthened my Emunah, not only in our our Torah and its philosophies, but also in the unbelievable sham which is the religion of Christianity. Obviously, this needs to be done on a foundation of truth. But you wouldn't believe how fragile is the Christian religion's claim to legitmacy, historic or otherwise.

This is not the place to discuss details of counter-missionary responses. But if a barb - and a very appropriate one at that - like the one made here by Penina affronts someone Jewish here, I think they should return back to Chazal in the Gemara and see what they say about mocking Avodah Zara.

Sara Mount said:

I think it is unnecessary and inappropriate to quote the NT especially a verse that the xians use to perpetuate a Jewish stereotype.

[Captain Q.]

I don't think any of us have to time to respond point by point to your post.

I have 2 comments:

1. What does this have to do with the subject being discussed here?

2. I personally find much incorrect, from a Torah viewpoint, throughout your post. It is very emotional commentary. At points it seems not to jive with both reality and Torah law and outlook. In fact, I would recommend you submit your writing to Rav Bar Tzadok, whose site you linked to and ask him for his candid opinion of a Jewish view to your writing. Good luck!

Again, this forum here at Jewish Israel is NOT the place to discuss these lengthy matters, especially when it is off-topic to the discussion at hand.

Thanks.

Elionori said:

What is real religion?

[Yoel]

The problem again I see the very orthodox and the not so orthodox getting a little to tuche we are all Jews and I believe the ones who are more schooled than others should be there for the unknowing Jew. Do not condemn these people because they did not have your schooling, help other Jews explain the Torah teach and show where it is written. How do you expect the unknowing Jew to respond when some christian tells him or her that yashu is messiah and g-d in the flesh, if the uneducated Jew can not respond that G-D is not a man or the son of man as it is written in Tanakh and show these evangelists where it is written.
Jews may not proselytise non Jews but there is nothing wrong in teaching and helping our brother and sister Of Israel to learn who they are and to bring back the lost sheep of Israel.

[Captain Q.]

I fully agree. However, I am now - again - taking off my Orthodox kippa and putting on my Internet forum moderator helmet to remind everyone again that this is a forum with certain subjects under discussion and straying off-topic is the wrong direction to go into.

This has nothing to do with being Jewish and everything to do with being a traffic cop. Thank you for your attention and back on-topic we all go.

Yoel said:

The problem again I see the very orthodox and the not so orthodox getting a little to tuche we are all Jews and I believe the ones who are more schooled than others should be there for the unknowing Jew..